ANONYMOUS SOURCE ================ The transcript of the "Caliphate" Tape The scene is the second floor of a tenement type apartment, located over a bagel shop on Marlboro Road near the Newkirk Plaza subway platform in Brooklyn, New York. This apartment building is residence to Michael Kramer, Richard "Gurney" Gernon, and the site of the Kephra Chapter O.T.O. Temple. The conversation takes place in a room appropriately nicknamed "the War Room", just feet from the entrance to the Temple. Present in the room is Grady Louis McMurtry, Bill Breeze, James Wasserman, Richard Gernon, Michael Kramer, and one other member of The Sanctuary Of The Gnosis. RG: It says here...uh..the only reference that we've been able to find is that he is chosen in a manner not here to be declared. GM: hmm JW: Right. RG: That's all that is known. BB: No no, that's not all that is known, GM: (chuckles) BB: because its well known that Crowley defined in that Caliphate letter in question- RG: Oh well, I mean from this- BB: Do you still have them up here? You know, the Caliphate letter RG: Yes BB: is like real clear- (aside to JW) have you talked about that with him? JW: Well UN: And silence is consent- JW: not...not at...we're going on someth...right now we're discussing um...an old..ah issue between um..Grady and I , and Gurney and um and it concerns the uh... BB: Order Of Thelemites? JW: Order Of Thelemites. RG: Yeah, and the whole concept of a an election for OHO JW: Yeah BB: No...doesn't occur. XX: someone coughs BB: You see its actually Gerald Yorke's- GM: Again, that was an emergency measure taken by Crowley because the Order was not set up at that point to elect an OHO because this again is seminal in my thinking that the reason Crowley took that expediency was because he didn't have a multinational body. BB: No. No. GM: And thats what we're working back toward- BB: No. Its as simple as this GM: the multinational body- BB: Its as simple as this...somebody made a boo boo and we can prove it. GM: (sounding uncertain) um BB: its very simple to prove UN: Crowley allowed for the contingency to- BB: Hold on. Hold on. This is like such a story! Its incredible. GM: okay... BB: There is a document...there are three orders that we know of theres the OTO...ok? Then there's uh... Order of Thelemites, then there's (his voice gets really low)...A A. XX: (someone coughs again almost at the same time) BB: now... GM: and the A A? RG: Yes BB: Yes GM: Ok...got it. BB: Alright...now the OTO...the head of the OTO is the OHO...ok? GM: Ok. BB: Crowley was uh very um concerned about leaving a clear succession and ... GM: The allot of an heir. BB: Yeah, the allot of an heir. and ah he left it to Karl Germer and to you because he had to look beyond Germer. GM: That's what he said in this (the letter) right ? BB: Thats right...now theres been always a question of how an OHO becomes an OHO....it says in the Constitution its not declared so we just know from that, however in the Caliphate letter, he says Germer is of course the natural Caliph "but I have to look beyond him to you" elsewhere when he's talking about Blooding- RG: Yes. BB: ...specifically the requirements uh that specific uh the desireability of that in a future Caliph and then in other words parenthesis ie: OHO- GM: hmm BB: implied... MK: spelled out... RG: He himself... MK: spelled out Outer Head of the Order RG: He himself says that the Caliph is the Outer Head of the Order. GM: Well this..yeah..this is my reading says on that too, since Germer was the natural Caliph and obviously the one to follow him (Crowley), but of course I also have this being a constitutionalist that the Caliphate JW: Right GM: was created on an afternoon of dispair that is to say that it was falling apart obviously we were not getting the work published obviously there was no one else there....I was all by myself (deep breath) and so I simply decided to commit as it were the great... magickal act, of activating Crowley's documents JW: Right GM: ....and so I stood there in that empty storefront and I looked towards the West and I made up my mind to do this and I typed a letter typed two letters one to Regardie and one to Yorke saying JW: uh-huh GM: that I have decided to accept the burden of the Caliphate because that is what the Caliph is known in the Orient as the bearer of the burden... JW: uh-huh GM: ..et caetera...and so that then having activated that by this magickal act of will this then of course what you give me now is the meat of the order manifesting itself, where up to now we've been working with sticks and stones as it were. JW: (apparently reading from Crowley) Your actual life or Blooding is the sort of initiation I regard as the first essential for a Caliph... GM: mm-hmm (in agreement) JW: for ....say twenty years hence the Outer Head of The Order must GM: Ah-ha.. JW: among other things have had the experience of War as it is in fact today.. GM: well its certainly longer than twenty years since (laughs about WW2) JW: Yes but putting the Caliph, putting the Caliph and the Outer Head in one breath.. XX: Someone coughs BB: OK now GM: that is true BB: this is important..now try to follow this because its a verrry difficult problem....it took ..it took ... all of us....like (laughs) we had beaten our brains to get around it but once we did, its like perfectly clear. There is a document...ok.. the OHO which I was talking about umm is in fact appointed after Crowley's death, there was not supposed to be an election for OHO...Germer was it. Ok? And Crowley.. GM: uhhhh Germer was Frater Superior until such time as an OHO was declared ... as I understood it. BB: No, but thats based on a letter you got that's fowarded through New York from Gerald Yorke..I can go get the letter out..but you know what it says.. GM: Maybe...but go ahead, go ahead...I don't have to- XX: Several people try to talk: RG: This ..This is the essential point of it UN: Listen to this part... JW: This is the one about the... BB: This is the kicker... UN: (to others) Let Billy do the presentation. BB: This is the kicker... its very funny ...that letter had a quote saying that within such and such a period of time Frater Saturnus must call an election to uh... of all ranking AA members over the grade of...uh.. JW: Zelator BB: Zelator umm to determine who will be the new head. Um...now..that is a quote from the Constitution of The Order Of Thelemites...that was taken bodily out of that document by Yorke sent through New York and Germer and fowarded on to you. GM: uh-huh BB: nowhere on it did it say Order Of Thelemites, its taken completely out of context and its been the source of considerable confusion for 35 years (laughing). Because it is specifically for that order...it has nothing to do with the OTO. Nothing at all. RG: (slowly) He was supposed to hold an election to decide the head of the Order Of Thelemites BB: Thats what the document... RG: Seeing as how if you see the whole document every name has been scratched off. He did not hold that election because there was no one to vote. GM: Well Germer had "German" logic yeah.. RG: Well it was obvious Crowley through his life had scratched voting members names off. it was GM: Welll uh I got you, I got you, but it was a...this has been the crux of- RG: until there was no one left (smiling is if a punch line) XX: (someone laughing) GM: of- RG: except Germer! XX: (laughing stops) GM: Dejury versus defacto you see...uhh we....when Karl did not- BB: No! But this is we have it dejure man! I'm tellin you this is not defacto OT..OHO RG: This is UN: Yeah let him- GM: Noooooo! UN: finish the presentation. BB: You have dejury OHO GM: Yo yo yo! (trying to get their attention) But lets review a little history here real fast. Ok-fine. XX: Ok GM: When Karl.... and I'm talking about a little antedeluvian history of 47-49....that sort of thing...when it became obvious, after he had notified us that this was going to happen, and my memory of it is that within that year he simply let us know that he was now OHO and I remember talking and writing to Mildred and Ray and to others and saying you know like..."What Happened?" But we were stuck with the thing. And the "thing" was this: Karl regardless of how you looked at it, was Frater Superior of the Order, Now...this then in my opinion is the basis of Karl's later paranoia...fueled by Sasha... in terms of paranoia about my wanting to su.. to replace... that I was putting a revolt against Germer because as though he had seen the logic that he was the only member of the Order and therefore he did not have to call a convocation... JW: Not the OTO GM: in our minds that made him defacto! But there was always a question of dejury. BB: Defacto what. GM: Defacto OHO. BB: No No he was the only member of the Order Of Thelemites. GM: But we're talking about the OTO. RG: Ok! JW: He was...he was GM: He was the Frater Superior of the OTO regardless of whatever- MK: OHO as expressed...as expressed in the constitution is a dejure term. GM: but I mean.... MK: The defacto head is anyone actually in charge of whats going on. GM: No no no no no! BB: But you see the point here is getting confused again... GM: There is defacto and then there is by law. A dictator is defacto but operate a constitution is by law. JW: Right. GM: And thats what we are talking about! BB: But I'm telling you in all honesty Grady... GM: uh-huh BB: that you are constitutionally... RG: Dejury BB: Constitutionally, dejury OHO. GM: (offhandedly, quickly brushing it aside) Right.Thank you. But we're talking about- XX: (all others laugh at this "matter of fact" acceptance) GM: we're talking about Karl and psychology BB: umhm GM: because just as when I gave umm Jerry Cornielius a lot of karma.. XX: someone coughs GM: a seventh degree thinking I was rewarding him and showing him that, you know, that he was appreciated the psychology was then he wanted to know when he got "paid"- when he got the next raise and so he voluntarily took the eighth degree much against my advice. Now the same thing happened here with Germer, uh, having declared himself OHO there was nothing anybody could do about it but the logic of it or the psychology of it was that he was always antsy about ...about people beneath him and I think one reason why he didn't initiate because he didn't want any competition and as long as he was the only one around, he was the only one who could do anything, but of course that killed the Order. Regardless of the Order Of Thelemites, in the OTO there was no one to replace him at that time. I couldn't. I was busy getting my education. RG: Right. Right. GM: Nobody...I say then I say Jack died in 52 but he wasn't involved. In that sense. I mean he was at that time had seperated himself from the organizational work as such....... other than fuckin around with Audrey. And uh Ray and Mildred, no, none of those...nobody wanted the job... XX: (laughter) GM: and it left him defacto head. He was in a sense dictatorial...but uh..in that sense so that um...this sort of thing has been something on my mind, for forty fucken years... and I- XX: But... GM: Pardon me?...but in any case, I'm not argueing with your logic, I'm merely suggesting to you that logic and human emotions have be both taken in together into consideration when dealing with subjects of this nature (starts tapping the table in emphasis of his point) I KNOW that your logic is right BUT, HOW will this effect the people involved because THAT there... how they react will effect... will effect the Order ... G.M.: So we've got this three billiard shot going. M.K.: Once again it would effect the Order magickally. The O.H.O. is being treated in the same way as the Sanctuary of the Gnosis. G.M.: Good. J.W.: The idea is is further that we, either we know that Germer may have been appointed as O.H.O. by Crowley and we may not have known about it or there may have been no O.H.O. for a period of time. R.G.: But doesn't he say in the Caliphate letter, he says that Germer is the O.H.O. A.C.: That Caliphate letter seems to indicate very clearly that the Caliph is the O.H.O. J.W.: The caliph and the O.H.O. and that he was looking beyond Germer to you. R.G.: Right. B.B. Right, yea, in other words your case, J.W.: As his successor. B.B.: Your case as Caliph is based on the letters is quite natural and on your relationship to Crowley. G.M.: Yea. B.B.: Ah however Germer's case is always, is also ah beautifully laid out in the letters because he says that he is of course is natural first Caliph G.M.: Mhm B.B.: And of course will be the O.H.O. and all that. And like that's laid out. And it seems, I feel that Germer really was the O.H.O. um, and that you are in the same sense really the O.H.O. G.M. Mhmm B.B.: And that the O.H.O. is not an elected office at all and that when it says in the Constitution that an O.H.O. is created in a manner not here to be declared, that it's by appointment. How do you imagine that uh, uh, an O.H.O. could be elected from the grade of Minerval? (All laugh) B.B.: I mean it's impossible! (Continued laughter ... G.M. laughter) A.C. And herein lieth a most sacred mystery. (More laughter) B.B. It's a mystery of, it's the Parcivalian thing all over again, you know, it's like ... M.K.: I might once, I might suggest though ... B.B.: It is de facto to that extent that Parcival is the defacto of myths. R.G.: The only mention of any election in any Order body is the mention of the election in the Order of Thelemites ... B.B.: Mhm. R.G.: And we know that the confusion about whether or not the O.H.O. should have been elected arose from a misreading of that document. B.B.: It was just taken out of context (Several speak at once) J.W.: Yea but it was a mistransmission ... R.G.: And if we go back and look at what we actually have which is in the Constitution, A.C.: The O.H.O. can be removed by, by election but he cannot, he is not appointed by election. J.W.: Right. R.G.: Precisely. Yes. A.C.: 10 degrees can remove the O.H.O. by a unanimous vote. R.G.: But it doesn't say that they, A.C.: But they don't appoint him. R.G.: They can only vote him out. (Pause) B.B.: I have a good question though, if they vote him out, how do you get a new one? (Laughter) J.W.: Ha Ha! M.K.: There's the point ... M.K.: We have, we have in the Constit... G.M.: Who appoints him? Because you see they vote him out then you have to have an election. A.C.: There's the rub. M.K.: We have something in the Constitution ... G.M.: Laughter... M.K.: which suggests that ... G.M.: I keep running into these little things! M.K.: ... which suggests that there is something written or stated or remembered somewhere that really nobody in this room, R.G.: Knows about ... M.K.: ... does or MAY know about, except the Caliph and perhaps, ah, one member of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis. B.B.: You know, there is one possibility that has been overlooked I think, and that's that within the office of the O.H.O. there is a genuine relationship to the Order of Thelemites. G.M.: OK M.K.: It's possible. B.B.: That would make sense, Crowley would think like that. J.W.: Now wait what, they are ... B.B.: He would... J.W.: They are two speci, in the Constitution of the Order of Thelemites. B.B.: However J.W.: They are spelled out as two specifically different organizations. R.G.: Yes. B.B.: Yea, but, ... J.W.: ... at times the Order of Thelemites is directed ... B.B.: In other words membership in one does not mean membership in the other. However Crowley did think in a certain way and he might have seen the, ah, Order of Thelemites as a link between the A.'.A.', and O.T.O. in some certain sense. J.W.: Right! Oh of course. R.G.: Of course he did. J.W.: But the, idea is ... B.B.: But the idea of, no, the idea of ... G.M.: Yes but... B.B.: The idea of the head of the O.T.O. ah, being elected by the ranking A.'.A.'. members might make sense. In other words it might ... A.C.: It would make a tremendous amount of sense! B.B.: It might be true, it might be true. That might be the case. J.W.: (laughter) Except A.'.A.'. members are not supposed to know each other. (All laugh) M.K.: It does sound like ... J.W.: So how are they vote ... (All laugh) J.W.: How would you call the role? M.K.: It does sound like Crowley's type of thinking though. B.B.: No no, they, they don't know each other in that sense, but there always has been a, you know, like a Chancellarius. There was supposed to be you know, like a Chancellarius who was like a coordinator or secretary. J.W.: Hopefully we've had our last Chancellarius in Crowley's lifetime! (Laughs) B.B.: Its possible. M.K.: If however there is no real way to determine it. B.B.: Yorke would know. It would be a good question for Yorke before Yorke di.. goes away. R.G.: What we do know is, is so obvious though, what we do know is what's stated in the Caliphate letters which is that the Caliph is the O.H.O. It says it. M.K. Mhmm. R.G.: It defines it. It's I think all we have to say on the subject. M.K.: And since there does seem to be a precedent of appointment based on that ... J.W.: Yes R.G.: Yes M.K.: ... then it can take place in that fashion. B.B.: And then the other thing is, and this is, this is significant, um, even assuming, assuming anything we want, you're covered Grady, you're one of the best cases in history I think. (Laughter) B.B.: Um, no really, because ok ... G.M.: Oh, keep a few random pieces of paper around. (Laughter) G.M.: Ask Aleister Crowley interesting questions! Like, Gee Boss, I'm a little dumb, can you help me with a magickal motto? Well yea! (Laughter) B.B.: That's right, can you help me with my math? (Laughter) G.M.: Can you help me with my math Daddy? Brrrrrrrrr (laughs) god. B.B.: No, but this is very interesting. Um, ok, Germer was the only member on the list ah, on the Order of Thelemites charter. So therefore at Crowley's death he was the only member of the Order of Thelemites. However, after Crowley's death, he did forward the ah, election ah notification to you. G.M.: That's correct. B.B.: He acknowledged you as a member. J.W.: As a Zelator. G.M.: That is correct. And ah spoke in terms of A.'.A.'. which I thought of in terms of Motta's claims of A.'.A.'. J.W.: IF he knew ... J.W.: Sure ... M.K.: And in any case a senior member. G.M.: That's it. (laughs) J.W.: But he, ah he seems to um, it seems that Germer gave Motta um also a membership in the Order of Thelemites. G.M.: Quite, but, but, at a later date. That's what I am getting at. I mean if Motta wants to go around swinging his ass about A.'. A.'. you might remind him of who is his superior in terms of time. R.G.: Right. J.W.: Yea but of course he is you know, ... G.M.: (laughs) Oh I am just being ... J.W.: Motta being an Ipsissimus Grady, I think you ... R.G.: Laughs G.M. (Laughs) Ah, you can tell him he's a mahatma. Ah did, in ah, I know he changes some of those, like you were ah, thoughtful enough to give me some of his advance prefaces which he later changed. M.K.: (aside) You got that one from the living room? R.G.: Mhmmm G.M.: There's one of them where he said not only are there mahatmas, I am one myself. M.K.: (aside) Want to keep it? G.M.: And did that ever get into print. R.G.: (aside) Like I said, I'll take half of it, ... J.W.: Ask Gurney, G.M.: Oh uh Gurney will probably know. J.W.: Gurney J.W.: Gurney, this is no time for ... R.G.: (aside) Like I said ... M.K.: (aside) Well, well, like in another week ... J.W.: Michael ... (laughs) A.C.: These guys are like, don't, not on tape! J.W.: Anything ... R.G.: Oh, true ... J.W.: Anything else guys? A.C.: What are you out of your mind? J.W.: Can we get back to Grady's question? R.G.: Yes! J.W.: Did Motta actually say that, uh, there are many mahatmas, in fact I am one myself? R.G.: Oh yes. J.W.: Was that in print? G.M.: Was that in print, did that go in the book that printed? J.W.: Did that go in ... G.M.: Or was it only in one of those prefaces that he didn't print? See he changed some of those prefaces. R.G.: No, I think that's, isn't that in the commentary to the Book of the Law? G.M.: I ... J.W.: No! G.M.: I don't think so. J.W.: No, it would have been in, it was in 65. G.M.: I think it was, I'm sure it was in something ... B.B.: No, Jim says, Jim says he's a mahatma in his. R.G. 65! Commentary to 65. J.W.: (laughs) G.M.: Who? B.B.: Jim. G.M.: Oh, ah ... J.W.: Mini mahatma. G.M.: Mini mahatma. A.C.: (singing) He's a mahatma! You're a mahatma! I'm a mahatma! We're a mahatma! B.B.: But no, um ... R.G.: Jim you can check it tomorrow. B.B.: No, the point would be though is that um on Crowley's death he only had one person on his list, ok? G.M.: Mhmm. B.B.: And, uh, Germer was it. On Germer's death to our certain knowledge he only had two people on his list and you had seniority. (Someone coughs) G.M.: Uh, well yea. B.B.: So ah, ... R.G.: So you're the head of the Order of Thelemites too. G.M.: By golly, by gor man it's beginning to look like that is the case, yes. B.B.: So um then, it would seem that, uh, there, it's worth investigating, it would seem that there is a relationship between the office of O.H.O., uh, this is really going the other way, J.W.: You better be careful because this way you're uh, opening up a whole new ... A.C.: You're stepping into a swamp with this thing, why don't we move on? G.M.: Yea, would you repeat that please? B.B.: OK G.M.: Yea, because you lost me on the turn. (Several speaking at once) A.C.: Yea, the Constitution, you've gotten so far away from this Constitution ... J.W.: What we can do ... B.B.: Anyway it falls you're covered ok? (Laughter) A.C.: You're a 10 Degree, nobody can argue with that. G.M.:(laughing) Either way I've got a helmet over my ass. B.B.: You're cool, so ya know um ... A.C.: You can sign yourself any damn thing you want. (Laughs) B.B.: I won't get into that. (Laughter ... inaudible speech) B.B.: It is possible ... J.W.: I know but we have to, let's, let's, yea, let's leave that ... R.G.: But so what? M.K.: I would interpret that as the case, constitutionally. R.G.: That's up to uh, whoever to take care of. J.W.: Oh kaay. We're on uh, Twenty five Michael? M.K.: Yes ... twenty five ... the Electoral College possesses ... B.B.: Define it again. M.K.: one most singular ... hmm? B.B.: The that, The Electoral College is what we are going to be activating ok? M.K.: Ok. (Reading) "The Electoral College possesses one most singular power. Every 11 years or in the case of a vacancy occurring, they choose 2 persons from the IXth Degree who are charged with the duty of Revolution." I should read Twenty six to explain it. "Its the business of these persons constantly to criticize and oppose the acts of the Supreme and Most Holy King whether or no they personally approve of them. (Laughter from all) Should he exhibit weakness, bodily, mental or moral, they are empowered to appeal to the O.H.O. to depose him." (Laughter again from all) A.C.: Here's where it gets real sneaky in your case. (Laughter all around) J.W.: Grady, here's where you have uh, ... A.C.: Insurance. R.G.: You've got an out. (Laughter) M.K.: (continuing) "But they, alone of all the members of the Order, are not eligible to the Succession." R.G.: This way you can be anything you want. Either way you can vote yourself out. Or depose yourself. (Laughter) A.C.: Its called a priest's hole. (Laughter) G.M.: Called a what? A.C.: Priest's hole. G.M.: Priest's hole. M.K.: I believe a summary of our discussion on that one was that the Electoral College would take that task upon itself when it actually does possess 11 members. J.W.: Or, no, that was one thing we wanted to leave open to discussion ... G.M.: Yea, uh, I wanted to get a little clarification on it. You say that this query, ok, the Electoral College, now uh, and uh what degree is that? B.B.: Fifth. J.W.: Fifth Degree. B.B.: That's the body that we want to try to implement this summer. G.M.: Ok what paragraph is Fifth Degree? B.B.: It's 15 on I believe ... A.C.: When it's fully operative there are 11 of them in, in that Electoral College. J.W.: (aside) It's not 15. (Papers rustling drowns side comments) J.W.: It goes 7, 7 through 14. Or, or actually let's say um, 9 through 14. B.B. Yea, in 9 its defined, and 10. Well its actually 11. G.M.: (reading) Fifth Degree ... oh what, paragraph 11? B.B.: yea. A.C.: Its numbered as paragraph 11 but the correction is uh, B.B.: No, it's still 11. (Rustling paper and mumbling) B.B.: Yea. Uh no, we only get off here. Ok, so just read 11. J.W.: Yea, well 9 ... A.C.: Oh, you're right. Yea. M.K.: 11 and 12 to get the details. J.W.: 13 and 14. M.K.: Well, we get more, 13 is a pretty qualitative statement. J.W.: (sighs deeply) Oh boy ... G.M.: Oh somehow or other I got confused between talking about the IXth Degree and the Electoral College of the uh, Man of Earth. J.W.: Right ... A.C.: OK, the Electoral College choosing these people from the IXth, chooses two people from the IXth Degree ... J.W.: The Electoral College is the Lovers. A.C.: Who will no longer be eligible for the Succession. B.B.: That's where it is. A.C.: By this choice. B.B.: That's why the Senate knows the 9ths. J.W.: Right. M.K.: That's right. G.M.: Try again. J.W.: That's why the Senate knows the 9ths. A.C.: That's why the 5 Degree knows the 9ths. M.K.: But not the 6th or 7th. Only the Senate. B.B.: Well, uh ... J.W.: Well, at that point it becomes moot, because our biggest problem is the Man of Earth series. A.C.: Yea, yea. R.G.: Right. G.M.: Ok, well what paragraph is the Senate and the uh ... J.W..: Very good, that's how we got it. A.C.: OK, uh, the Senate is covered in paragraph 7 through paragraph uh, 14. R.G.: So far. (Laughs) (Door slams) A.C.: But we're referring here to uh ... M.K.: No no, the Senate starts at 11. A.C.: Ok. B.B.: Yea, its defined in 11 though, pretty much. M.K.: Paragraph 7 is uh, is general description of the Fifth. A.C.: Yea. And we're referring from paragraph 25. G.M.: Yea, that's why I'm trying to get these paragraphs together here. In fact uh, Bill, that would be a good thing. I'd like to see logically out like that, in other words its all very well to be talking over here about this, but then when this inner logic, these inner connections, that needs to be ... A.C.: Have you got a large piece of cardboard and a wide felt tip marker? M.K.: I've got a wide felt tip marker somewhere, I don't know about a large piece of cardboard. A.C.: And a wall. We could put a flow chart together tonight very easily, about how this thing works. R.G.: Turn a poster around. (Inaudible comment) J.W.: (aside, laughs) You're gonna break my heart. A.C.: No. (Laughter) R.G.: (aside) What? R.G.: Do I have a poster you can turn around? M.K.: You want a larger piece of paper? Why don't you start with this? B.B.: I'm trying to think if I have anything, I mean I have ... A.C.: Give me a good pencil. B.B.: Go ask, go downstairs and ask Mimi, I'll get, Mimi has like a huge drawing ... R.G.: Oh, poster board, yea. A.C.: Yea, in fact your knowledge of this is better, you could probably pull a flow chart out of your skull in uh ... B.B.: Well, I don't really think I should do one now, I think we should finish this review. A.C.: Yea. J.W.: Yea. Let's do it later. (Mumbles by several ... inaudible) M.K.: Yea, if you want to clear the table a little bit. J.W.: In any case the O. M.K.: (aside) Oh, oh, gimme, psst. Alan. J.W.: What I was ... we said we should un ... B.B.: Yea, I added that, by the way to, really the 9ths should be kept secret from the Men of Earth, I don't think its just ... J.W.: Right. B.B.: ... the Senate that knows, and the Lovers J.W.: The youngest of us. Yea. B.B.: Yea, in other words, yea, it would make sense, in other words, once that, uh, Men of Earth are known to the uh everybody. Uh, the Lovers and known to the Hermits and the Men of Earth, ok, their known sort of either way, uh and the Hermits are only known to the uh the Lovers. A.C.: And each other of course. B.B.: And each other. J.W.: The um, the idea is that we, we could certainly do this now and or soon, within a year, if we wanted to, and I see no reason not to do it. We don't necessarily have to wait until we have 11 Senators. A.C.: I, I would. J.W.: It's up to Grady if he wants the criticism to ... be officially sanctioned! A.C.: I would because the two 9ths, I would wait until 11 senators because the two 9s they choose are ineligible to the succession and that's fucking important! So I would keep it by the letter of the fucking law that thing is not capable, the Electoral College is not capable of doing that until there are 11 of them and it's fully implemented. B.B.: Well it's actually not the letter of the law as is stated there. J.W.: Yea. B.B.: That would be an interpretation and uh um and a political expediency of some sort, um. A.C.: It says it consists of 11 persons. B.B.: Sure but we're not going to have an electoral college called an electoral college, and then see, no, the fact is ... J.W.: This, this is ... B.B.: The Electoral College are are, they're 5th Degrees, there are going to be 9th Degrees that are not going to be on the Electoral College ... A.C.: Right, right ... I'm just saying that their, their decision in this choice is going to have a serious effect on the history of the Order. B.B.: I, actually I feel ... G.M.: What paragraph says 11 persons? B.B.: This would be a destabilizing ... A.C.: Pardon me? G.M.: What paragraph says 11 persons? A.C.: "11 persons" is in paragraph 11, huh! Oddly enough. And this business about the 9s that they choose for this Revolution task being ineligible to the succession is uh ... J.W.: Twenty six. A.C.: Is in uh twenty uh, well it's actually twenty five. J.W.: Twenty five and twenty six. G.M.: Uh right, (inaudible) B.B.: I mean it's quite possib... its quite probable there are 9s that don't want the succession. Its quite probable. J.W.: God ... (laughs) A.C.: I would, I would. R.G.: is there any (JW and RG laugh and mumble) A.C.: But it's important. It's historical, it's important to the history, future history of the Order. M.K.: I still, by the way I would take issue with um knowledge by the entire Lovers series of J.W.: Oh please ... G.M.: I'm just, uh yea, it just hit me. (Several speak inaudibly at once) A.C.: Michael ... G.M.: You want the entire or you just want the Electoral College? A.C.: That's a red herring. B.B.: Well, M.K.: Quite right, that's the point. B.B.: The problem is, the problem is you're going to have ... M.K.: Right here ... "one most singular power." G.M.: Ok,. Paragraph ... M.K. Twenty five. G.M.: I've got twenty five. A.C.: Well that singular power I think is referring to sowing the seeds of Revolution rather than ... G.M.: No, rather, is it that or ... A.C.: Knowing the 9s. G.M.: Choosing, or is it choosing, of course if choosing is for the purpose of seeding the Revolution. B.B.: Well I mean we can take this any way we want. We could, us, there could be anonymous profiles. A.C.: Yes, that would be the way to insure, that would be the way to ensure integrity in the decision, but that's something for them to work out. J.W.: But it may not, the integrity is with a position that we're creating here out of the air, and I don't think it's something, you know, that needs to 100% to be decided uh, at this instant. In other words its either the whole Lovers Triad or the Electoral College or, or anonymous profiles, A.C.: That has to be discussed. J.W.: I meant that's, that's really got to be discussed and not decided tonight. The, the stuff that we have to decide tonight is ... B.B.: Well this is a particularly touchy one, because this is, this could be one of the most politically explosive, uh, sections of the document. M.K.: That's right. J.W.: So far we don't have to worry about it because, um, we have um ... B.B.: But I think we should have a little um, uh, eh, yea, I uh, I think we should get off on the right foot on it because see this, if we get this thing through its going to be ratified um, in a consensus ah, like with commentary I mean, ya know, with like um, with like recommendations for implementation uh, and if this goes through without a recommendation for its implica, implementation as a form of guidance then the whole this whole uh section is open to you know, in other words, we've managed to obviate uh politicking in the gross kind for most of the other sections I think, and its going to, I think a lot of it's going to wind up here you know! (Laughs) A.C.: This, yea, that's a lot of political power man, that means that ... B.B.: Suuure! A.C.: the Electo... the 5th Degrees Senate can, can can can prevent two 9s ... B.B.: No, it could be interpreted that, you know, they, that they, that's how they choose ... M.K.: No, the power, ... B.B.: They choose but they could, uh, I think you would have to be nominated ... I think you know, I think you'd have to be nominated ... M.K.: It's a power particularly appropriate to the 5th. It continues to balance the uh, ... B.B.: Sure, sure it's the 5th's, it is the 5th's balance over the, the autocrat. M.K.: It's another piece of candy, let's say, for the 5th, who must remain there for 11 years. B.B.: Mhhmm. M.K.: And who govern the, the Man of Earth B.B.: There's no term, there's no term for this, um ... (someone coughs) B.B.: Yea, 11 years J.W.: 11 years. B.B.: Every 11 years or in the case of a vacancy, nor is there an indication of how a vacancy ... J.W.: Death! R.G.: Death. B.B.: Death? Ok. (Laughs) Fine, then I guess you can't resign then. M.K.: A vacancy of what? J.W.: Or, if you, a resignation B.B.: I, I, (inaudible) worried about this, how would you feel about having a couple of Revolutionaries on your case all the time? (All laugh) J.W.: (laughs) How do you think he feels now? A.C.: A couple? It would probably be a big relief! (All laugh) J.W.: We wanted to have a (Glan.?) G.M.: The uh, first one who uh sort of pseudo-volunteered but I think is thinking other thoughts now, is Norm Katzburg in Chicago. And he might be a good choice, or he might not. But after he, uh apparently he had some kind of very heavy magickal experience in England and I couldn't tell from his ecstatical letter that I got as to whether uh he wanted to take, to change his, the his name, Hiawatha Camp he wanted departurement that he and his camp is departing, or whether that was his departurement from this universe and taking the 8th Degree as the case may be. And uh, and he wanted, and uh, what he was saying, I wrote back and said well, I can always appoint you Sovereign Grand Inspector General just like Crowley appointed me and so forth, and this basically came down to a big laugh. But, in other words the question did come up at that time. B.B.: Mhm. (Low laughter) J.W.: We wanted (Chris Gallan?) to be one of these guys. (Laughter) J.W.: We felt he'd love nothing better. A.C.: You're cruel! J.W.: Than to oppose and criticize. (Laughs) The ideal. B.B.: No, it really shouldn't, I'd, its not necessarily people who by temperament oppose and criticize. G.M.: I think it would violate the concept to take a patsy like (Gallan?) As I'd like to have a suitable opponent if you know what I mean. (All laugh) (Baby noise in background) (Grady laughs so hard he coughs) G.M.: That's not all I judge everybody by Chris. (All laugh) J.W.: Well if we can remain friends over this Grady, G.M.L I think I am tickled with a den of Revolutionaries right now! And this is also why I have been making my uh, grouchy comments known is that the uh O.T.O. becomes constitutional when the constitution named body sits down and starts picking things out. In other words you've got enough bodies with enough brains and enough expertise and know how and dedicated Thelemites to have come to this point ... B.B.: (aside) No, no ((perhaps speaking to child) G.M: is in my opinion a compliment to my uh, ... A.C.: Oh, no, thanks man. (in background) G.M.: ... you know, at least keeping it straight in that line. B.B.: Mhm. J.W.: Ah, this would have to be something that um, I believe 9th Degree members would simply volunteer for, um, and uh, and then, you know, make that known to the Electoral College and then be voted, chosen. R.G.: Mhm. G.M.: Who's gotten the ashtray? A.C.: Ohhh, M.K.: Ah ... A.C.: You ah, its under, there it is right there. G.M.: Right in front of me, right, I got my pipe in it. (Several mumble at once) A.C.: That's called, that's called a negative hallucination. G.M.: A negative hallucination. A.C.: That's the same way we missed the repeated paragraph, when we all saw this thing. B.B.: No, that's called two o'clock in the morning (Child's squeaker toy goes off) (Laughter) (Another squeak) R.G.: Bernard ... B.B.: Yea ... J.W.: Oh kaaay ... B.B.: What's she doing? A.C.: Ok, we're moving on to the next ... Woman: She's uh, she's searching for Grady. She says ... where is he? B.B.: Grady's over here. Emily. Woman: Oh! (Laughs) B.B.: Come here Emily. R.G.: I think she's going to be shy. B.B.: Mimi told her my grandfather was coming. Woman: (speaks in French) B.B.: You know what she said Grady? She said, well, ok, he's coming and, and I'll give him a kiss, and, but he'll be very lucky. (Laughter) B.B.: Emily? Woman: (In French) Emily. G.M.: Oh god. Hi sweetheart. B.B.: Abec to Grady. Abec to Grady. G.M.: Give me a kiss. Give me a kiss. MMMMwa! (Kiss) Oh! I'm lucky, I'm lucky! Woman: Oh, I'm very surprised. AC laughs. B.B.: That's unusual. (Woman laughs loudly) (Grady laughs) G.M.: Beautiful, thank you sweetie pie. (Child speaking, inaudible) Woman: A moustache. (Background) She thinks that he's your daddy. B.B.: Mhm. Well that's what we told her. G.M.: (laughs) Grandpa. (Laughs again) A.C.: Well, there is a resemblance. J.W.: Oh kaay. Ok to move right along? (Child chattering) B.B.: Uh no, um, I don't know. You mean we just left that hanging? M.K.: Twenty seven ... B.B.: Or what. M.K.: Yea, it looks like it. J.W.: Well it, it, you know, we, its got to, we've got to get through the next transition because we have to um, .. B.B.: Yea, let's put it this way, its gonna have the, the people, the two people who have the same term of as the first Senate. J.W.: Right, and ... B.B.: Ok, and the other, they're gonna be basically a couple of senators uh, and a couple of 9ths will take the job, and there's no way that Grady can be deposed because he'd have to depose himself, (laughs) they'd have to convince. J.W.: Right, (Laughter) J.W.: Right, that's what we'd have. B.B.: So, you know, there's not much danger involved ... A.C.: Metaphorical seppuku. J.W.: What ... B.B. What it might do is institutionalize dissent, so um, that's, that's not necessarily a bad thing. J.W.: No, it's, it's a good thing. B.B.: You have a certain amount of it, you know. J.W.: What, what we need to do is ... G.M.: It's sort of like the British Shadow Cabinet. B.B.: Mhm. G.M.: Let's say the opposition is given an official recognized place so that everybody knows what the hell is going on ... (inaudible) J.W.: It would be a peculiar position, you know, for some people, um, I mean it would seem, I don't know, its a curious one, it's one that I think bares a lot of thought, um, really a lot of thought (Someone chuckles) M.K.: But the duty is reserved for the Sanctuary. J.W.: Yea. M.K.: And that gives you some idea ... J.W.: Yea ... M.K.: of the kind of person ... J.W.: It's a, it's a, you know ... M.K.: expected to fulfill that job. J.W.: So we need to think about that. B.B.: Ok, I'm just going to ... (continues inaudibly) (JW laughs loudly) J.W.: I don't want to succeed you, so if we can be friends ... (laughing) I wouldn't mind doing it! (Laughs again) G.M.: (laughs) (inaudible comments) J.W.: (while laughing) But I sure don't want to sit around bitching at you all day long either, I don't know what this, uh, what this thing really means! (Background talk ... inaudible) B.B.: What's it going to undertake that the 9s must volunteer, and uh, uh, you know ... J.W.: And then be chosen, by the uh, by the ... M.K.: Must volunteer for the office. A.C.: The, there's nothing preventing that in this ... B.B.: Well no, ok, let's ... J.W.: No, there's nothing preventing it, it's got to be something that ... B.B.: Actually it shouldn't be ... it shouldn't be a problem ... A.C.: That's an acceptable position ... B.B.: Not necessarily voluntary, but the Senate should check with the 9s, that, you know, it, it, vibes someone they think would be cool for it. And ah, and um, ... J.W.: It has to be something ... B.B.: And you know, ask them, and if they say yea, fine, then they're chosen, eh, ah, ch, chose means specifically J.W.: There, yea, there has to be consent, there has, nomination or self ... B.B.: Well you can't lay it on somebody ... J.W.: Right ... R.G.: They can't be drafted. B.B.: But then again it shouldn't be a voluntary thing like they volunteer and then you vote on them and then like you turn them down, and that becomes a political thing. Like, oh, I volunteered but uh, they passed me over. Can't have that happen either. They should, they should simply be chosen, you know, in other words, you're being considered, are you interested? No? Oh, ok fine ... A.C.: yea ... B.B.: Then you go on to the next, you know ... M.K.: One other question ... A.C.: Because we're against conscription. B.B.: Right. M.K.: Is the appointment of Revolutionary ... R.G.: Right. M.K.: for a period of 11 years? J.W.: Right. R.G.: Yes. B.B.: Yea. R.G.: That's what it says. M.K.: Mhmm. A.C.: But his ineligibility to the Succession I would infer from this is uh ... J.W.: For 11 years. (Other voices in agreement) B.B. No, that's in case there's a change of, a change ... A.C.: Is it? B.B.: There's a change of ... J.W.: It's for his office as a Revolutionary ... B.B.: Yea. M.K.: That's right. A.C.: Ah! R.G.: What if he resigns? M.K.: Once you're out of office A.C.: That's interesting! B.B.: (aside) I don't think he is. A.C.: Then it's a lot less volatile than it seems. R.G.: That's good. G.M.: Uh, J.W.: You have to be ... G.M.: I've been thinking another, uh, Mike would you, uh, repeat that bit of wisdom, I seem to ... B.B.: I think he'd have to resign from the Order itself ... G.M.: have come in late ... I missed, I missed this conversation. A.C.: The Revolutionaries are only ineligible to the Succession during the 11 years that they're serving as Revolutionaries. G.M.: Oh yea, oh yea, yes, you notice that Andropov had the Secret Police under his control until 6 months, a suitable time, to wait until (someone laughs and coughs and drowns out remainder of comment) (Grady laughs) B.B.: Ok, so someone in 9th's chosen, no volunteers, J.W.: Well, we didn't say no volunt ... but ya know, we're not sure ... B.B.: Well, but it makes sense man, no, uh, somebody volunteers for the job and you pass them over, its political ... its political ... M.K.: It might make sense because its more uh ... A.C.: Yea. (Someone coughs) B.B.: You know, I mean it's no harm in asking people ... M.K.: its more of an area that uh ... G.M.: Well we were saying a minute ago that they'd have to ... M.K.: ... further discussion ... G.M.: somebody said they'd volunteer, and I made a note to that somewhere ... A.C.: Well you not going to draft them ... but you're going to ask them. You chose em, you ask em. Do you want to do this? If they say no, fine, they don't. B.B.: yea ... G.M.: Uuum, I think most people J.W.: Consensual ... G.M.: who are at that level are intelligent enough to eh, to either protect their ass along that line, by letting their qualifications be known in their own casual way and see what happens, because this is always the way it happens in academic ranks. B.B.: Mhmm. G.M.: Is that you uh, let it be known, in your own way, even if its only the subtle, uh, well among mathematicians a few years ago in universities there was known, something known as the dirty finger nail cult. Because, unless you looked scruffy, looked like you hadn't bothered to shave too well, in other words if you were paying too much attention to Malkuth, you weren't operating in this realm this exalted realm, because therefore you had the cult of the dirty fingernail you see. J.W.: laughs G.M.: Well, this is uh, (laughing) what we're getting to, and that of course is an unreal interpretation of a very real thing, which is to say , uh, like the University of California had just chosen for a new president of the entire system and the guy's from the University of Utah. Now where the fuck is Utah? (All laugh) G.M.: But ... you wouldn't believe the competition that guy went by, but it's so subtle that nobody would, could acknowledge they were getting their throat cut because of course they were processionals. B.B.: Mhm. A.C.: That's right. G.M.: And profess ... a profession has a conscience or an ethic as opposed to a trade which does not. B.B.: Yea ... but, uh, ok ... you were saying that obtains, I believe, but the point is, uh, we, Crowley guarded against buttholes, uh, throughout this document, (laughter) he really did, and who knows, a thousand years from now, well, you know, the Order may get packed with buttholes for a couple of centuries, it could happen. (Laughter) You know, and then it'll recover G.M.: yea ... B.B.: who knows, you know, but, no, we're just thinking ahead, I don't know. Um ... (laughs) G.M.: Oooh, yea! Yea, yea, yea. R.G.: Up to our buttholes in buttholes, huh? B.B.: Well, G.M.: Yea, well, um, I don't know about future people in my position, but I got a full dose of that in the Army in Korea. At that time, I was a Captain in battalion level and operating right straight up against the regular army because regular army became, uh, started telling them I was a lieutenant colonel and all that, you see. And, uh, I made an observation under extremely trying circumstances that there is something even a West Point graduate in 30 years of peacetime army there is something that happens to his brain, it calcifies, you see, and this is this butthole sort of thing. (Chuckles) In other words, my current thinking is that we are so revolutionary its going to be a little difficult for us to, be, uh, graduate somebody to that level who's a butthole because just like right now for example, yea, I'm here, yea, everybody knows I knew Crowley, but if I were competent for the job, I wouldn't be holding it either! (Chuckles) (J.W. laughs) G.M.: you see what I mean. B.B.: I see what you mean. G.M.: And so the person who's going to fulfill that position is obviously going to have to have his savvy together to be intelligent enough to do it. The job, or he wouldn't be a candidate to begin with. So uh, when we get to that, why, we're, that leaves us uh, with future possibilities, but at least I am very much aware that beaura, bureaucratization can set in and I think that that's also one of your basic problems here is that you see Heidrick as a bureaucracy, and the ah, the corporation as a ah, machine, not responsive to the heart and Will of the Order as a magickal group. Now, is that a summary? J.W.: In the past ... B.B.: That's a good summary. (Laughter by all) R.G.: Also ... (Mumbles by several) G.M.: Also, that's what I'm getting at, also, I'm saying that this is, we're coming now to as it were to a point of decision, decision points in time are very important, but for me it's been every decade more or less. It, ah, there were certain times when I had to be in a certain place and make the right decision and act, and its taken 10 years in between with free time, but I forgot to make a fortune, go to South America, but be at the next decision point at that time ... (AC laughs) G.M.: and in condition, not only just alive ... (Laughter by all) G.M.: but to make the decision because otherwise the whole thing doesn't work, you see. And that's where we are in terms of the Organization. Because now, Crowley, McMurtry, yous guys, in other words at this point the Order has now come to the point where it can start, in that sense, reach this mass intelligence of where everybody is thinking along lines. There's, individualism is rampant as is obvious (laughs) but...if you're on the same vibration, it's like a bunch of bees in a, in a hive, and they ma y have a bunch of individual bees, but everybody knows the vibration of the hive. And that sort of thing. I kept trying over seven years to explain to Shirene, well, if you were a Thelemite you would understand why we do things like that, you know. (Chuckles) And those people who aren't Thelemites, then, it's uh, there's nothing uh, nobody is forcing them, its just that they keep zeroing in on this vibration of the Book of the Law, and the (Torah?) and that sort of thing, until you have this group of people who have separated themselves like cream from milk. And they are floating like those kids in Salt Lake City. I saw it so beautifully first there, then I hadn't seen it before, but he, this is a test tube case, as it were, (chuckles) here's Salt Lake City, this entire flat Mormon universe, and here's this little happy bunch of honey bees floating around the O.T.O. completely invisible, you know. They were, as I told them then, I said you're like cream, who has separated yourself from this, and ah, you float invisibly amongst them like we all do (9th will as it were?) (chuckles) (Laughter by all) G.M.: Fomenting revolution which is exactly what they were saying because they, the Mormon prophets were dumb enough to, eh, they have this prophesy you know, that's one of these days Salt Lake City will become Babalon and all good Mormons will go back to Missouli Missouri, (Laughter by all) G.M.: And they're right on the front lines! And you god damned right, and we are Babalon, and we're here and that's a lot of prime property that's going to be let go! (drowned by laughter) (More laughter) G.M.: Now you see what I mean! A.C.: We'll take that Disneyland-like cathedral over there! (Laughter by all) G.M.: Yea, right! So, uh, yea, this, the forefront of the Revolution sort of thing is sort of built into the O.T.O. in that sense, you can't be, ah, let me put it this way, you can't be a Thelemite in this society without ah having a trace of the outlaw in you, because you've got to first of all rebel against Christianity, and its moral dogmas as it were, before you can consider being a Thelemite to begin with, unless you pick up the Book of the Law and just get turned on click automatically. (Chuckles) Which also happens. B.B.: Yea. G.M. But, the spirit of revolution, ah, just being Thelemites just to begin with, you know, is so built in that, I won't say it's difficult, its difficult for me to conceive of only in the sense that I don't see bureaucracy um, (inaudible)... I site as proof the present meeting. J.W.: You're going to be in a very, ah, in a very peculiar position as O.H.O. and Supreme and Holy King, because um, (Chuckles) B.B.: If they want to depose you, M.K.: You're a little bit like Kruschev, (Several speak at once) B.B.: If the Revolutionaries decide that you're unfit for duty, for some reason, and they want to depose you, they have to appeal to you! (All laugh) G.M.: Crowley had a way of looking at it like that! (Laughter) B.B.: Yea. J.W.: On the other hand, if you felt like it, just as, as on the hell of it, you could appoint a Supreme and Most Holy King for um, um, the United States. G.M.: I'm looking forward to that, and uh, in the sense that ... J.W.: And ah ... G.M.: There ah, there was a delicate um, judgmental balance there, I'm looking forward, see, one reason for this expansion, the allowing the Thelemic current to recognize itself in various countries, but practically from an organizational point of view, looking at it as Constitutionalists to ah, fulfill this function we must have 10th Degrees. National heads. J.W.: (laughs) I was just thinking, boy, if we, (laughs) B.B.: Uh oh! J.W.: Can we take this off the record for a sec? But ah ... (Chuckles) M.K.: What? J.W.: But, I find it really ah, (chuckles) ... (There is hear a clearly audible break and disruption in the taping, which resumes choppily) B.B.: You want the light out Grady? G.M.: Ah, no, that's alright, I'm coming to work for now. B.B.: Ah, yea, ya know, we really, I, in something as, this is extremely delicate and something as delicate as this is, that, ya know, I think, I ah, I everybody's going to be, going to be on their, on their guard to try to keep their own, you know, like aspirations ... (Someone coughs) G.M.: alright fine...ah, you uh, you want a new organizational set up, uh, you're going to have to justify it in terms of the practicality of uh, differentiating ah, one organization from the other. And not only in terms of uh, setting down a uh structure rationally conceived, but also that will go over with the people concerned. Now for example, this happened once before very early on, we've had a lot of, uh, little ah, systems, there at Grand Lodge. This was back within the first two years. Something happened. And uh, so, the consensus of opinion isn't necessary to mention names, ah, was that uh, well Heidrick is doing the wrong thing here, and should do so and so, but, as see, basically, disapproved of it and they wanted to do so and so because they disapproved of it. I knew this was dynamite, and so I came to it like a theoretical question, and he just froze, for a second, and he said, rather skillfully, well, when that happens, I'll just go someplace else. And you have to remember, that his money, and ah his expertise, and his knowledge, his fantastic talent, is all volunteer, now, if we don't want Heidrick in the Order, we can treat him one way, and if we want him in the Order we can treat him another. Because he has, all he has to do is pick up his marbles, shit, he's got the Universe to play with. He values his position, I think, I think of him as very loyal, ah person, to me personally as well as to the Order. But basically what he's loyal to is, loyal to is Crowleyan Thelema. And this is ah, he was the very first one to recognize the lineage aspect as far as the Berkeley people were concerned. That is is the only. This is the guy that Crowley designated therefore its Go. But nothing can be said that he can't ah, (inaudible) What I am getting into ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of tape ----------------------------------------------------------------------